Milly & Mik - on healing and celebrating family through adoption

Nov 19

Raised in disparate cultures across the world, Milly and Mik had different ideas about what kind of family they wanted. But there was one thing they agreed on: adoption (of three dogs and a child!) was the way to go.

Mik 0:00
There's just so much already, let's say, out in the world that is in need of shelter and a home and love and care, and we don't have to bring something extra then in that sense, but better actually take care of something that's already there.

Milly 0:14
That was the same for kids for me is that I wanted to have a family, and so did I have a requirement on how I had that family? No. Why add more to the entire population or a group of dogs or animals that already need the help.

Nandita Bajaj 0:38
Those were today's guests, Milly and Mik. Hello everyone, and thank you for joining me on this journey. My name is Nandita Bajaj, and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment, With or Without Kids, an interview series in which, through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them, whether that means being childfree or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hello, Milly and Mik, welcome to the show. It is so wonderful to have you both today.

Milly 1:39
Hey, thanks for having us, Nandita.

Mik 1:41
Hi, Nandita. Good to see you.

Nandita Bajaj 1:43
Great to see you both, and you're both joining me today from Uganda. If you could both start by introducing yourself and telling our listeners a little bit about where you live, what you do, anything else you think would be helpful to get to know you?

Mik 1:58
Yeah, sure. I'm Mik from the Netherlands, born and raised in and around Amsterdam. Come from a family that separated when I was four years old. I lived with both my mom and my dad, during the week with my mother, and on the weekends with my father. I had a good relationship with both of them. Sadly,they passed away two years ago. Well, I've lived in Amsterdam for most of my life, until I decided to take a sabbatical and move to Tanzania and where I worked in a small town where I met Milly, and Milly and I have been dating and together ever since. And went back to the Netherlands, could not really find our place there, and then actually decided to come back to East Africa, and so now we live in this wonderful place in the middle of Kampala.

Nandita Bajaj 2:44
Wonderful. And Milly?

Milly 2:44
Yes, my name is Milly. I was born in Canada, but I have East Indian roots, so I'm second generation Canadian. So we have, it's a mixed family. I grew up with my biological father, my biological sister, and I have a stepmother and a step brother, but we are all sort of a united family. We currently do live in Uganda. We've been here for almost five years. We left the Netherlands with the intention to always come back to East Africa, and we were open to any opportunity in the region, because that's where our love flourished. And so Uganda was the first opportunity. So we actually never had it in mind, but we ended up here. So yeah, in terms of profession, I have a background in the private sector, in business and marketing, but I wanted to make a shift to social development, and that's actually where Mik and I met, doing a development project in Tanzania around social enterprise, vocational learning. So right now I work in the refugee space in Uganda. Then Mik can obviously speak for himself, but he's also in the social sector, which is waste-to-energy. So we found our place here and now we have a family of six...

Mik 2:59
and counting.

Nandita Bajaj 3:05
Well, I love how different your backgrounds are, and you both shared a little bit about your family growing up. You both had what one would consider a non-dominant type of upbringing in terms of family background, and you've also taken a pretty non-dominant approach to creating your own family, which I would love to get into shortly. But before we do that, I'd love for each of you to describe what it was like growing up within your family structure, within the unique places where you were growing up, Canada, Netherlands and culturally, what was the climate like in terms of the pressure to create a family in the traditional sense and to have biological children?

Mik 3:06
Yeah, so, like I said I come from, you know, a separated family. Both my parents had been married and divorced before that, and so I actually have a half brother and two half sisters from that and so I actually came as the last offspring, so no full brother or sister in that regard. Lived most of the time with my mom and half sister, which I consider to be my sister and yeah, stayed home until probably I was about 17-18, went to live in Amsterdam, student life, etc. And I think during that time, I was not occupied in my mind at all to actually have my own family, or to have kids for myself or from adoption. I think while the Netherlands, it's probably known for, it's like individualism, right? And the Dutch always find to have, like, a strong right to self-determine. And of course, that is different for different generations, like my parents actually grew up, like after the Second World War, where actually they needed to rebuild the country and rebuild the workforce. And so actually the government was really strong on pronatalism, like in policies, etc. Later on, when they became elderly people, that would be a massive cost actually, on society, right? And so that's when they shifted, actually, the policies. And so I think for the last like 15-20, years or so, I believe it's been a non-explicit way of pronatalism policies, in the sense that there's not being said a lot about it, but the society is conducive to it, in the sense that there is, like a good welfare system. There's social housing. There is a work-life balance that is quite unique, right that it makes it very conducive, actually, to raise larger families. But then still, everybody, as far as I know, my friends, also family, have their own stance on it, their own opinion on it, and how they want to do it. And for example, my sister, she became a mother when she was 19, then so actually started very early on with wanting to create her own family. And for me, I'm now 48 so I was actually very late to this thing. But I think what made it more clear is that, because I come from broken home for a long time, that drove more of a fear to actually not have this family and to not be responsible for that. And then thinking back when I was four years some of my first memories were actually around the time of the divorce, which was a pretty heavy time. Every week, I had to swing from one parent to the other parent, right, with their opinions about the other and so I was basically the pleaser, right? And also I wanted to fix things and I wanted to heal that which I couldn't, of course. What I mean with that is that later in life, I decided for myself that I actually wanted to have the family that I was never part of, to be able to provide that. And so in that sense, I think having children does sort of fill a hole that was made in the early parts of my life.

Nandita Bajaj 7:52
Right. Very fascinating what you say about growing up in the Netherlands and the fact that there's so much focus on individual choice. I appreciated that you said the society makes it conducive for people to have children if that's what they want to do, because of so many social provisions that are provided, which I think is a wonderful thing, because in a way, that choice is still intact. It's not necessarily coming from this overt pressure from the government to follow a certain path. And I also know, just from studying a little bit about the Netherlands, that the choice to not have children is considered quite legitimate and acceptable, which is, I think, quite admirable, that many different life choices are permitted, which is different from a lot of countries where people without children are often stigmatized, not just socially, but also disincentivized through policies that don't consider their needs. It's great to hear that that was also your experience. Thank you so much for that background and Milly, what was it like for you growing up? I mean, you grew up in Canada, I live here, kind of within the Canadian culture, but then also within the subculture of your own family.

Milly 9:09
Yeah, it was really interesting being within an Indian family that wasn't super-traditional, but with an uber-dominant father. So we weren't very traditional, and we still had challenges with some of the things that we could do in terms of mixing with other children, certain things around curfews and gender norms and things like that that became quite obvious throughout the years. In terms of growing up in Canada, I would probably consider myself Canadian first versus anything else, so I didn't feel personally pressured to have kids, per se. It wasn't the talk day in and day out in our family. I think actually, pressure probably came more from the society we were in, in the sense that Indian culture parents invest a lot in their children. So our parents are no different. They invested a lot of time in our education. You know, love showed up a little bit differently, but we were able to stay in their house if we were unemployed after university, even with university. These are things that are not so typical, but maybe typical for an Indian family. And I think that in return, they also expect to have a say in your life. They expect almost a reward for lack of a better word. And I think that comes in the form of having some input into who your life partner is, marriage and the idea of marriage, and children and family. I was lucky, in a sense. I didn't feel the pressure to have children. For marriage, yes, it was a given that I wanted to get married. Now, where did that stem from? I don't know, but I could probably chalk it up to how we grew up in our community and that everyone around us was getting married. It was kind of a given, but also amongst my Canadian friends. So it wasn't just within the Indian context, but it was there.And so when I met Mik, he came at it from a different angle, where he wasn't necessarily considering those things, because it was very dominant to not necessarily be married and not necessarily have kids if you don't want to. So you know, you could go either way. So marriage was a given for me. Kids was not a given for me. I wasn't keen on kids, but what I did enjoy was our family life in adulthood. So that was actually a lot of fun. It's something we look forward to. Often, our family replaced our friends. So that is something I wanted to work towards. So I saw it more of a long term investment, and there was no urge to have my own children. And maybe I can give a little bit of background. My biological mother passed away a few months after I was born due to an illness, and when she discovered her illness, she was pregnant with me. And so I think there was some sort of implicit correlation. And there was a mention of,sort of the correlation growing up, not often, but in sort of darker times, it was mentioned, and I think that that could have played a role most certainly. But that being said, I didn't need to have my own children. There was no strong need for it. So when I met Mik about seven, eight years ago, it was a conversation topic that came up, marriage and children. Even when we first met, I believe it was clear that I didn't need to have my own children, and actually I was keen on adopting. So there's probably some adapting that happened, or some evaluation.

Nandita Bajaj 12:07
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it's interesting that both of you came to a similar conclusion of wanting to have a family. And Milly, you said that you really enjoyed the family life in adulthood, and that you wanted to kind of create that for yourself. What did you mean by that?

Milly 12:27
Yeah, so, I think coming from a mixed family, as it were, and, you know, my parents got married through an arranged marriage, so it wasn't the match made in heaven, and I don't think it was based on love. I think it was based on tradition and convenience. That was a lot more common and is in certain places still. And I think there was tensions around two families coming together, how to raise certain children, how anger was projected, reactions, things like that, and that basically endured for many years, probably until my early 20s, so probably about 20 years ago. When the shift happened is I think when we moved out of the house for university or jobs, and there was almost like an increased appreciation for our relationships. And what was probably previously tension or would cause a fight actually ended up being laughter, because you realize that the situation's not permanent. You're sort of leaving after the weekend, and I think that impermanency allowed you to take things more lightly. And that's sort of what I believe happened with the family. I think that also my dad, I was saying he was a dominant force,and I think he became less dominant over time, and my mom was able to sort of find her position more in the family over the years, and so my belief is that probably ended up transpiring in my early 20s. You know, my sister and brother were only two years apart each of us, so we were kind of in the same age group as well, and I think life phase. So it's not like we were going through different life phases like Mik and his sister, because they were about 10 years apart. We were going through similar life phases just a couple years apart. We went through our challenges together. And so it's almost like we overcame some of the key challenges and realized that it was part of our lives, and we were getting through to the other side to be able to enjoy it. And so when I realized that for several years that was the case, we were enjoying our family time quite a lot, where we would sort of cancel activities with friends, to hang out with family, I realized that I wouldn't want to miss that in my own life or my own journey.

Nandita Bajaj 14:26
That's very special, and what a nice reason to want to recreate that same kind of arrangement. So tell me more about how you both met, and what was the reaction from the different families around your entering into this relationship?

Milly 14:43
So I made a career shift. There was an opportunity in Tanzania, and Mik had taken a sabbatical from work in the Netherlands, and so we met a few months into both of our sort of placements. And so there was nothing to do in that small town. We both had movie accounts. And so we found a place on the beach that actually randomly had a board that you could project on. And in the interest of driving that hotel business that owned that part of the beach, we came together to arrange movie nights on this sort of beach in this beach town. And so we called it Mik and Milly's Movie Night, Mtwada. So Mtwada was the name of the town, and that's how we actually got together. And so, yeah, it actually happened quite quickly, because we were friends for a little while, and then we moved in together quite quickly. And when I told my parents about it, I think they were very okay with it. At that point they were probably wondering if I would ever get married, which is the biggest concern. But I think they were very happy to because I dated before, and, you know, a couple relationships relatively seriously, but I never shared that actively with my parents. And I think with Mik it was quite different, and I had told them about it quite early on. It was just a feeling that I had. And so I think they were quite happy with it. They weren't so happy with the moving in together, but when you're at a distance, I think sometimes out of sight, out of mind, and so, yeah, I think that was it.

Nandita Bajaj 16:09
I wanted to comment on how you said you didn't necessarily share with your parents about the previous relationships, which I think for a lot of our Indian listeners, they will understand that relationships and dating life of Indian children are on a need to know basis for parents. Why invite all that trouble into your life? And I can also relate to my parents not responding too well about moving in before marriage. So we had to do a pretend engagement. We didn't really do anything for our engagement. We just called up our parents and we're like, Hey, we're engaged, but there's nothing to show for it, except we wanted to, in their minds, concretize that this was a serious relationship, and that's one of the ways in which people know that it's serious. Anyway, and Mik what was your experience of that from your end of it? How did your parents respond to this?

Mik 17:07
Yeah, they both liked Milly from the start. And while my mom hadn't traveled actually a lot until later in life, and she actually made two big trips, and one of them was to India, which she actually completely loved. And so of course, to tell her, Well, this is my new girlfriend, that she has Indian roots, that was like a bonus for her, right? And so she really loved Milly, actually, right away.

Nandita Bajaj 17:30
And so you've been together, you said, about seven or eight years, and you recently added a new member to your family, a new human member to your family though you've had nonhuman family members for a while. So let's go into that journey a little bit. Tell me what your family makeup is like today. What made you decide to create family in this way?

Mik 17:54
So in Tanzania, I'll get to the human, but we started with a street dog called Makia, and we decided that we wanted to do something with our spare time, actually, and it is to take care of animals, because we both feel strongly about animal welfare. And there's this amazing dog shelter in Dar es Salaam and I wanted to go over to see if I could volunteer there. They said, like, No, you have to actually foster them. So we fostered a dog, and after two days, we said, like, Okay, this dog is staying with us. So Makia came to the Netherlands, now came to Uganda, and in Uganda we got two other dogs, also from the street, through acquaintances. But yeah, of course, like dogs is very nice to have, but we still want to go for the full family.

Milly 18:34
My thinking around that is that there's so many dogs in the street. There's so many dogs in need of a loving home. Why are we going for the perfect breed or something that we perceive to be the perfect fit when there's so many dogs that need a home, but there's a human element that we wanted to explore, and that's where we brought Paulo actually into our home. So Paulo is Ugandan. Paolo came home about a year ago. We started the paperwork two years prior to him actually coming into our home. It was administrative and it wasn't too burdensome, but it was a process. So they say that actually parents or prospective parents have to match with a child, and it's not matching in the same way as one would understand it. For example, in Canada, here, it was really about which child is available for international adoption. And first, the approach, which I appreciate and support, is that they actually look for a local family first, for sort of cultural cohesion and immersion and all that. And then, when they're not selected by a local family, then the child would potentially be open for international adoption if they were in the orphanage for long enough. So you go through a few of those filters, and we came across a few children with some had severe health issues that we just weren't ready to take on as a family. And Paulo was actually the first or second boy that we met where we were like, Okay, this could be a fit in terms of on paper. And then when we met him, of course, we had a difference of opinions on you know, if we see them in our family or not, but then eventually made the decision to bring him home. And yeah, so far, it's worked out quite well, you know with its challenges and its joys, but it's worked out quite well.

Nandita Bajaj 18:47
When did you know that you were gonna go through the adoption route? It's not the first thing most people think of. Often, for people to consider adoption, people are unable to have biological children, and it's often considered the next best thing. And now, with so many reproductive technologies and fertility treatments available, that's pushed adoption down even further in terms of options. And so it really is considered to be a last resort for most people, but for you, it was quite clear that it was the first option and that biological children weren't even on the table for you. So tell me a bit about that, because that is very, very unique.

Mik 20:52
I think when I started thinking about creating family for myself, so this was before Milly, I think also I had that same general assumption that it would be my own kids somehow. And it's actually when I met Milly that she made it very clear and explicit, like, I do not want to have children biologically. So how do you see that? And that's actually when I really start to understand also for myself, like for me, it is about creating and having that sort of loving home where you help a kid guide and grow up, right, and to see him develop. And so that doesn't matter whether that, of course, is your own child, which you can also have all kinds of issues, difficulties, problems with, or the issues that you will also have, of course, with an adoption child. And so I was actually pretty quickly convinced that adoption has actually made a lot of sense to us. There's just so much already out in the world that is in need of shelter and a home and love and care, and we don't have to bring something extra then, in that sense, but better actually take care of something that's already there, right?

Milly 21:59
For me, I don't know when that thinking formed. It never actually wavered. I never actually thought, oh yeah, I should be pregnant, I should not be pregnant. Of course, one is curious in terms of how their biological offspring looks. You know, I can understand that, but that was actually it. That was it. That was the only reason why I could justify having our own children. And of course, Mik as a consideration and his perspective. So it would be a stronger consideration if Mik was strong on the issue. It would be a bigger discussion. Yeah, I think that was the same for kids for me is that I wanted to have a family, and so did I have a requirement on how I had that family? No, what I actually found really strong in my mind was there are so many families that look like each other, like all from Indian roots, for example, that still have big challenges. There are some that don't look like each other, and they operate quite well and peacefully. And so I'm like, there's no formula for a positive upbringing and a peaceful home and a productive life. Why do we have to consider having our own children and for what reason? Why add more to an entire population, or a group of dogs or animals that already need the help? There was obviously a further question on, should we adopt from India? Because when we started getting really serious about adoption, there was the consideration of child centricity. So by that, I mean is, How is the child going to live being in a multiracial family? That's a massive consideration. And so we did consider, of course, India, because somehow they could look like both of us, I think. And so that would help for more of a child upbringing and having a bit more of a smoother journey. And then I went back to my justification again, around actually, there's no journey that's guaranteed to be smooth, ever. It doesn't matter how cohesive the family looks. And there was a legal limitation. We were moving to Uganda. So Uganda was not a signatory to the Hague Convention, which a country needs to be in order to adopt from India. And so we very quickly hyper-focused on this country, and it was possible. And so we proceeded.

Mik 23:58
I think it's also about making it fit, right? Because I think with Milly, while you touched upon it, but when we met Paulo the first time, that didn't go as successful for me as it went for Milly. I was looking forward to this for such a long time already, right? And the first engagement, when he saw us, he took the banana that we brought for him, and then he just walked off, and we never saw him again. And, you know, thanks for the gift. Yeah, not even, right? He just looked away

Milly 24:25
He did come to me to peel the banana.

Mik 24:27
Right, okay, anyway he didn't come to me. That was probably my point. But the point I'm trying to make is that, yeah, it wasn't love at first sight, right? There wasn't a fit at first sight. It was actually a fit in the making. And luckily, Milly was so clever to actually engage all the families that we've spoken to before about their adoption process and what it was like for them in the initial moment that they met and the first months. And without any hesitation, they all said like it was a mess. Right, it was difficult. And so actually that brought a lot of sort of peace in my mind and my heart. Think of okay, so this actually could work if we just attune differently, bring a different mindset, and it's what we did in the second encounter, and it actually went already so much better. And still, every day we do a lot right, and we do some things wrong, right? So, and that will be with any child, I would guess. But yeah, it's really about making the effort to make it fit. And so every day we talk about what goes right, what goes wrong, then try to make it better the next day. And still we make the mistakes, and still we pick it up again, and still we go.

Milly 25:33
Because I think honestly, what I started learning and really believing over the past few years is like love is really a choice, and I think in this case as well, like a relationship is a feeling, but it's also a choice, the consistent dedication and commitment. And I would say that with our one, one year experience of having a child, it's also a choice that you make. You also choose to love. You want to see a fit, and you want to make it work. And as we bring him into our family, that is what we're trying to build every day, but it's still a choice that we make. We choose to love him. And yes, in the beginning, you know, it wasn't an automatic love at first sight that you you hear about so often with your biological children, and you've delivered a baby. This is what I see on social media. But love developed, and I think part of that was because we chose to let it develop. And that's sort of where we are now.

Nandita Bajaj 25:48
That's beautiful. Very, very well put. So tell me more about that experience, the first year of being with Paulo. And what has that been like?

Mik 26:30
Yeah, you could have, like the roller coaster cliche, of course, but it is something like that, right? So when he came to our house the very first time, this was still when he was actually sleeping in the home every night, right? So this in the first, let's say, three weeks of our encounters.

Milly 26:45
Oh, sorry, just to be clear, it's called a baby's home here in Uganda. So we've kind of naturally started using that. That's synonymous with orphanage.

Mik 26:51
Yeah, good point. First time he came here, it was actually very difficult with the dogs. And so we thought, oh gosh, now that we finally have our own sort of connection with him, is this now going to be difficult? And second time, third time that he came over, it already went so much better with the dogs. And then at some point he transitioned, like it was so clear that he was in need of a proper home and that he fully gave himself to it. That's how I experienced it. Also, it was difficult, because he's a strong-willed boy. He's quite demanding. And, of course, us as newbie parents, it was hard to set boundaries. And actually, I think it was the probation officer that said to us, like, well, you're not going to have it easy, because this kid is basically abandoned by his parents, so he has problems making connections, so you have to emphasize or be better at that. On the other hand, you do have to give him the boundaries. And for such a strong-willed boy, that's going to be a very big challenge, and that's what we still find every day.

Milly 27:51
One thing I just wanted to add for the context was we brought him home at 18 months. And so if you think about the bond that a parent and a child develop from, let's say, age zero or day one until 18 months, it's quite a lot. Whether it's breast feeding or whether it's bottle feeding, you're spending hours just feeding the child and looking at the child, and it's this eye contact that's creating a bond, and that is something that we didn't have the opportunity to do with Paulo to establish that bond. So we were starting to establish that bond at 18-19, months. So if you think about the time lost and the fact that he's already sort of developed as a little human, sort of before we got him, it's a toddler thrown into your life, and you trying to understand, not just, do I bond with this child? Do we get along? Is there a fit? Does he like us? Do we like him? And I think that starts with a fog, because when you're an infant or a newborn, you're automatically kind of stuck with your parent, so you're stuck with creating that bond. And that's not the case with an 18 month year old. And I think that was sort of underpinning the entire experience. It's been pretty positive overall, I would say. Like Mik was highlighting some of the concerns with the dogs, that was a concern of ours, because that was our current family. But I would say that the bond is something we still continue to work at, because with adoptive children, something we take for granted such as eye contact is not a norm for them, and so that is an extra layer that we are learning constantly. I'm doing a workshop right now on it, because it's how we develop ourselves to develop him. So that's the other piece, as well as the sort of self-regulation, the self-awareness. And it sounds like, okay, these are just words, but actually that has been the biggest challenge is how do we develop ourselves, manage ourselves, our own emotions, to manage this child, which would be the case with any children. But remember, this child has been thrown into our life almost at a two year mark, and it's day and night. Overnight, it just changed. You're trying to course correct as well, because you haven't been there for almost two years, and you don't know what you're course correcting because you weren't there,you see. So it's actually, I've never said it out loud like that before, but that's what we try to do. We try to course correct.

Mik 29:58
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's also I think implicitly, was one of the reasons why we wanted a younger child, because we both actually know from our own experience, even already early in life, you build your baggage. And of course, these kids have even more of that, right. And so I think also to, well, not to go easier on ourselves, but just to not make it very, very difficult. Yeah, the younger the child is, I think it does make it easier in this course correction probably.

Milly 30:24
There's so many layers that we are working for and working to support every day, right? So it's not just the idea of a child where people do go a bit haywire when your child comes into the home. It's a child that is adopted, another race, with a challenging background and upbringing, to first time parents, and then we have our own emotions, because we're humans. So I think that there are so many layers, actually that we don't necessarily give ourselves credit for, which has come out a little bit today. So thank you.

Nandita Bajaj 30:57
That's lovely. And as we're kind of coming to the end of the arc of your life so far, in the story you've told,in creating the kind of family you've created, any thoughts on that?

Mik 31:09
Well, despite the challenges, it has been a very enriching year with Paolo and also the mirroring that happens when you learn about yourself a lot. We're still in debate about what would happen next, in the sense that it also depends on how long can we stay in Uganda, for example. That has a lot to do with Visa, but it would be lovely if Paolo, at least, before we move, have memories of this place where he grew up, and that's basically his home. And so we bought a small piece of land in a very nice part of Uganda and put it on his name. And so for him, wherever you will be in the world in the coming years, he also has a little tie to being able to come back whatever you would want to do with it. But yeah, like maybe a second child. We are still discussing that or thinking about yes or no. We both grew up with siblings. We love our siblings in the sense that having the connections with them and having those bonds that make your life so rich, and we would want to have that for him. And he's a social kid, and so Ithink to have a sibling would probably be good for him as well. For me, that would be a nice addition. But again, we still have to see what the future holds in the coming months, let's say years.

Milly 32:18
I would say that life is definitely more fulfilling. It already did feel quite good with a cozy house and the dogs and things. And I would say that this has added sort of an extra piece of the puzzle, and it's because we also have quite a bit of fun together. We have three at the table now, which is quite novel. You have a buddy who's going with you to go grocery shopping. So there's that piece which is just like the light fun in the day to day. And there's also the things, such as when you see him learn and develop, and you feel like you've played a role in that. You also have these moments in flashbacks where like, wow, Uganda is a developing country, and so you have different sectors of society. And sometimes you see children, you're like, wow, that actually could have been Paolo, like that could have been his life. And so you have some of these moments and you're like, Wow, this is pretty special, and you feel grateful, and that's when you can kind of step out of that moment. So yeah, I would say that I'm quite grateful for, I think, the life that we're building. That's now, right. And so that doesn't mean that in 10 years, or when he starts realizing that he's part of a multiracial family, or that he had a mother that abandoned him, that's going to be another challenge in the future. So at this moment, I would say this is what it is now, and it could change because it's deep, but I think we're not ready for it, but we're ready to handle it, work through it, because we've talked about it. And so we're quite fortunate in terms of how it's turned out, and I think aware that it won't necessarily continue like this, but those are like the peaks and troughs of life and family and things. And what I anticipate is that we need to educate ourselves on what the future can look like, and we need to make sure that our family is alongside us on that.

Nandita Bajaj 33:56
Yeah, you're right. You know, it's a long journey ahead to figure all of those challenges out, because our society is still built in a way that prioritizes certain types of family structures. And I think it's very wise of you to be aware of some of the things you might experience and how to preemptively prepare both yourselves and Paulo for that future. But I am so thrilled about the family that you have created. It sounds really lovely. And I often hear people say that it's really altruistic to choose to forgo biological parenthood and to choose adoption and to choose to bring someone else into your life, to offer love and care and dedication to, and I do believe that it is true. But I'd also love to be part of a world where what you are doing, both of you, which is an act of altruism, to not be considered that, for that to just be considered the norm - that it is possible to express and give love in so many different ways, and that it should not be seen as some exceptional act of heroism. It's just like you saw a need, both in nonhumans and humans who need loving homes, and you've opened your homes to that. And I think that's absolutely beautiful, and I really hope that you become this kind of beacon of inspiration for a lot of other people to consider creating families in this way. Thank you so much for sharing your incredible journey with me, and I wish you so much luck for years to come, and would love to continue to follow your journey.

Milly 35:38
Thanks, Nandita.

Mik 35:39
Thank you so much.

Milly 35:40
Yeah, really appreciate the questions and also the opportunity as well.

Nandita Bajaj 35:44
That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. What did you think of this episode? Do you have your own story you'd like to share? Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me, whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond Pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance, the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team: Josh Wild, Elisabeth Strunk, Alan Ware and Kirsten Stade.